Home Alone
So Lanuria’s off at UFO Days or something in the town we specifically avoid when driving to the Big City. This mean’s that I’m all alone! I can do all sorts of crazy things, like not blur names out and not offer constructive criticism and post RSPs from two months ago because they’re still heinous! I can also contemplate the big questions, like “Is it okay to post an RSP because one line is bad?” Does one larceny make someone a criminal?
Can you spot the problem area?
I guess the more fitting question is “does one rape make one a rapist?” How about many rapes? I’m having fun imagining some fellow - like a Bill Nighy looking chap – in a bow tie being the counterpoint on Situation Arena with Wolf Blitzen or whatever it is going “Actually, to be a rapist, it must be habitual…”
I don’t know about you, but when I go looking for sexual partners, the statistic I sort the table by is Number of Prisoners Raped. Per day, if I can get it, not just overall, because I want efficiency. And of course someone raised with draenei social norms will be the one doing the assault. That makes perfect sense.
Maybe it only sounds crazy to me because I’m not the kind looking for shemale partners. Like… wouldn’t I prefer someone that wasn’t a habitual rapist, because that way I know they’ll care about my needs? Maybe if I was into that, it’d all click in my head. “Oh! Of COURSE I want the rapist! How couldn’t I?”
Sheesh.
Lanuria Dawnblade, a.k.a. Courtney Adler, aspires. She's an aspiring DM, aspiring photographer, and aspiring wife. She lives in Monroe, Wisconsin and complains about the weather far too much. She enjoys The Big Bang Theory and singing the songs from Glee.
Varendil Dawnblade, a.k.a. Taylor Vincent, is a 22-year old writer, student, World of Warcraft player, and 4th Edition DM. He lives in Monroe, Wisconsin with his fiancé and their jade plant, Esmeralda. He likes Douglas Adams and The Venture Bros. He hates Toni Morrison. Don't even ask. 
Agreed. Bloody futas. That and yeah… why on god’s green earth does it seem a good idea to break lore. All the rapists/evil ones turned into demons, remember?
October 29, 2011 at 2:35 pm
Whaaat is the deal with the guys who won’t admit that they’re bisexual and likes cocks and boobs. I’m bi, and I just don’t care. Still futas gross me out.
And now that you’re alone I think you should have sock rain :3
I throw my socks up in the air sometimes, shouting “Ayoo, sockraino!”
October 29, 2011 at 3:09 pm
Also, it’s technically rape unless both agree on doing it. I bet many of us have been raping/raped!
October 29, 2011 at 3:11 pm
If you’re implying that it’s rape unless consent is totally verbally granted, I’m calling bullshit.
October 29, 2011 at 3:22 pm
Ehhhh. There are non-verbal ways to say yes and request sex that aren’t rape. I mean, mute people must have mutally enjoyable scenarios somehow.
That’s not to say silence or merely compliance is consent though. There is over 9000 ways of saying no or just not giving a yes.
October 29, 2011 at 3:34 pm
Stop having supwise buttsecks wiff my science!
October 30, 2011 at 8:05 am
Actually, a friend of mine linked me this really interesting Youtube video of the author of a book called “A Billion Wicked Thoughts” who did some pretty neat research into sex.
According to the data he accumulated, the top body parts that heterosexual men across the world were most interested in were breasts, butt, feet, and penises. He also goes on to say that shemale / futa porn is incredibly popular among heterosexual men, likely because they possess all four of those key body parts that many men pay the most attention to. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they are bisexual or homosexual – in fact, homosexual men have next to no attraction to shemales, according to Ogas’ research.
It’s pretty interesting stuff, though I haven’t been able to read the book myself as of yet. :<
^ The video of the author speaking on various subjects covered in his book.
November 1, 2011 at 12:01 am
It bears noting that while the study is insightful, his research methods are atrocious. No real scientist should EVER make survey questions as deliberately skewed towards the results one DESIRES like this guy did. Take anything he says with a grain of salt. I would love to see the results of survey research done by someone with a modicum of scientific integrity – of which Ogas has less than none.
November 8, 2011 at 10:41 am
I’m a bit worried of what this person’s idea of ‘coming on strongly’ is. Or the snide implying with :3 that if they um…Flirt wrong they’ll be raped? Wut?
October 29, 2011 at 3:36 pm
Perhaps it’s just my own observations but I’ve seen very few prisoners of war from either faction in the WoW universe. The only examples that come to mind would be the Shatterspear questline and the orcs being held at Honor’s Stand in the southern barrens. Maybe the one blood elf in the Theramore tower. I haven’t done her quest as Horde though, so I have no idea what she’s all about.
And I’m not sure if the humans, dwarves, and gnomes at Warsong Hold count since they’re deserters, not P.O.W.s.
It seems to me that the taking of prisoners is rare, even for interrogation purposes. and as we saw with the Shatterspear trolls, once they got what they needed the prisoners were killed assuming they didn’t die from the torture. (Before you go there, I don’t think trolls are that hung. Don’t let your red pride get out of hand now…)
Either way, the only reason the Alliance had the orcish prisoners at Honor’s Stand is because they’d lost their honor. So my theory is they wouldn’t have the seven foot draenei cockbeast take them, no… they’d let the gnomes get theirs. What better way to destroy an orc’s honor?
October 29, 2011 at 3:58 pm
The Forsaken’s prisoners/slaves might count as POW’s, depending on whether you regard the people of Hillsbrad as militarized or not. Not relevant to this RSP, however.
I have another issue with this notion of prisoner abuse, though: If you’ve ever run the draenei-only quests on Bloodmyst Isle, quest text speaks of the belf prisoner they’ve taken, and how to get information from him/her. In that text, Exarch Admetius specifically says that torture is out of the question. (http://www.wowhead.com/quest=9756)
So where, exactly, did Yuliana get the idea that violating prisoners was hunky-dory?
…Then again, this Yuliana is also the proud owner of a draenei concubine. I’ve seen the alleged sex slave. I don’t think they’re too high on canonical accuracy.
November 2, 2011 at 9:49 am
If this profile had simply not included that one sentence, this would have just been another run-of-the-mill fetishist that can’t keep their kink under wraps. That one sentence transforms it from simply annoying to offensively terrible. There’s many honest-to-goodness rape victims out there, and the last thing they want to see when they play a video game is someone openly reveling in a form of horrific abuse. Seriously, crap like this can trigger flashbacks.
October 29, 2011 at 7:50 pm
““Oh! Of COURSE I want the rapist! How couldn’t I?”
Sheesh.”
I suppose that it would of course depend on whether or not you were into sexual rape fantasy. Which, as I understand it is a rather common fantasy among women if not men. I know you and Lan are pretty vanilla (or at least your comments on most erps seem to suggest it) and you come from a sexually repressive society but I’m sure you’re aware of this one at least.
Inappropriate for the rating of the game of course. But then I would think most erp was. You could argue that as long as you keep it private it won’t bother children, but you can never really be sure who is on the other side of the pixels, 18 year old or mature sounding 14 year old?
October 30, 2011 at 2:42 pm
Whether its fantasy or not, its still illogical as hell. I think they understand that that’s essentially the point of fantasy, x is so special that it defies x and that’s totally hawt but at the end of the day its still illogical.
October 30, 2011 at 4:04 pm
I understand that it’s a fetish or fantasy for some, but treating it so cavalierly and acting as though it’s a normal part of the character’s day job is pretty offensive in any case, if in a different manner.
October 30, 2011 at 6:06 pm
…to You. It doesn’t make the whole thing bad. Yes, You have a thing against it. I think most of us got it by now.
I’m always surprised how… specific some people’s problems are. Now, I’m pretty much blank about Warcraft lore, really. I know just about the basics of it, which… pretty comes with its name. It’s WARcraft. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but to my knowledge, they hardly follow some sort of geneva convention.
So, uh… soldiers do pretty terrible things to prisoners of war when allowed to. Sometimes, they’re even specifically instructed to do so. Says a lot when “rape and pillage” is an instantly recognizable phrase. I’m pretty sure there are enough real-world cases where such people commited artrocities, came back victorious, were celebrated as heroes, got themselves a job, married, and had kids. You know, without the whole raping part, just as they didn’t continue the shooting-at-people part.
So, is it nice? Of course not, not many things about war are, after all. And, of course, You are entitled to be so appaled by the act in question, that the mere implication of rape is enough to spoil a whole RSP for You. Fair enough. But, to answer Your question: It probably is okay to post a RSP because one line is bad. But that’s not the case here. You posted it because YOU didn’t like that one line, and what it implies. Not because the line is bad. Which seems pretty dishonest to me. You have an issue with what the character represents, not with how it is presented.
I’ll grant the point about the character’s race not fitting the character traits at all, though. That one’s actually legit here.
~Sylv
October 30, 2011 at 6:41 pm
Yes, rapists can exist. This character is bad because it is extremely unfitting for the race with little to no justification (Up until, say, Azeroth, draenei were on the run – nothing to rape and pillage in terms of war there) and the player cannot take it seriously. Not purely because the character is a rapist.
October 30, 2011 at 7:22 pm
There is war, and there is war. Depictions of war differ, often wildly. The depiction of war thus portrayed in WoW is not one in which the systematic sexual abuse of prisoners seems like a setting conceit. I would expect that sort of behavior in a character based in, say, A Song Of Ice And Fire, but not here.
How “real” do we need the fake war in the fantasy kitchen-sink setting to be, exactly?
October 31, 2011 at 3:03 am
“Need”? Obviously, it’s in the eye of the beholder. It’s obviously real enough that, You know, people get killed. In melee, too, which of course is much different than the “push-button-kill-thousands” kind of killing, way more personal, and requiring way more, let’s say, dedication. So now I’m wondering: It’s okay to push an axe into the face of an orc, ending a life – possibly in agony over hours, if he’s not immediately dead – but rape, now, that goes too far? What I’m saying is that the distinction is absolutely arbitrary. We take [i]those[/i] artrocities for granted, but [i]these[/i] here, they are distasteful.
@Gizzybiscuits: You’re absolutely correct. Now, go through Varendil’s entry again, will You? See my problem? It’s three paragraphs of “Rape is disgusting”, with one sentence about how it’s pretty unfitting for a Draenei. Not that it’s an actual racial limitation, mind You, but that’s a different matter. In any case, my point stands – that one line does not make the RSP bad. Neither does it necessarily make the character bad, if unusual and awkward (which is already a given since it’s a hermaphrodite, anyways). It’s quite clear that part of the character concept is a problem here, and apparently [i]mostly[/i] for very subjective reasons. Which is okay, I guess, everyone is entitled to apprehensions. But if it is bullshit, there’s a fair chance it will be called out as such.
~Sylv
October 31, 2011 at 12:36 pm
Yes, murder and mass slaughter are generally okay to include in pieces of fiction where sex, whether consensual or abusive, is not. This is Commonly Pointed-Out American Media Contradiction #5. You may complain about the arbitrariness of it all you like, but it exists, and I do not see how pointing out the arbitrariness of not including sexual abuse in the setting automatically makes the case that sexual abuse in wartime -should- be included in the setting.
And it’s not as if the profile posted is didactic. This isn’t somebody who’s RPing the character for the sake of pointing out the unspoken horrors of war and bringing the attention of players to a very serious issue. That would be annoyingly preachy but understandable. This is somebody beating off to the idea. The rape of male prisoners is fap material for the player. If you want to justify this profile, you’re going to have to justify not only why rape should be included, but why it should be treated as a jolly good time by all present.
October 31, 2011 at 12:55 pm
I didn’t mean to imply that it -should- be included, merely that there is no real reason to make it tabu. The character’s player is not implying sexual abuse of POWs is customary or even common – which would arguably be imposing on the lore -, but merely that it exists, which is just common sense.
Um, no. I don’t have to justify that, though it probably is well justifiable, to be honest. It’s the player’s choice to include it, and there’s nothing wrong per se with it. He’s not saying: I want to rape all of You, and I expect You to enjoy it. He IS saying: “If You want to engage in ERP with this character as a male, do not expect to be on top, so to speak, just because this character has boobs and Yours doesn’t.”
In fact, he pretty much makes it clear what to do NOT to get “raped” at the end of the RSP, and by “raped”, I mean: Engaging in sexual activity with the intent of being the one who delivers, not the other way around. I actually half expect the player didn’t even give much thought to that line, and what it implies about the character’s past; it was probably just an attempt at being witty.
But even if that is not the case: There seems to be a misconception here. -Noone- expects to carter to everyone’s needs with a character; characters like those tend to fail in any case. This is obviously a character with ERP written all over it, so there’s already a great deal of people with no interest in interaction. So, if I interact with the character, chances are good that I have the same thing in mind. If so, chances are ALSO good that my character doesn’t suddenly change his mind mid-play, and unconsentiual sex is not an issue; and even if it’s not consentual in-character, it’s very probably consentual otherwise. If a situation like that does arise, it’s either an unfortunate misunderstanding, or just plain stupidity on one side. You don’t engage in RP with a character that has “psychotc mass murderer” written all over it if You are unwilling to take the risk of Your character getting harmed.
So, in conclusion: The character here isn’t even exactly proposing rape-fantasy ERPs. Even if he was, though, there’s nothing wrong with it per se, because he doesn’t force it on unsuspecting victims, but more or less clearly states what to do or not to do in order to initiate or avoid certain events. Leaving aside whether one finds the proposal per se acceptable or not (and for the record – I’ve never ERP’d in my life, I’m just not into it, so it’s not like I’m defending my own kinks here or something like that), that’s actually pretty corteous, if You ask me, and certainly doesn’t make a bad RSP.
~Sylv
October 31, 2011 at 1:41 pm
“because he doesn’t force it on unsuspecting victims, but more or less clearly states what to do or not to do in order to initiate or avoid certain events”
And if the other Rper doesn’t have Mrp…?
It shouldn’t come down to the recipent character’s actions but to what the other has agreed upon. Even then, asking in most places outside of the Darknest channel is skeevy as fuck.
October 31, 2011 at 5:15 pm
If the other RPer doesn’t have Mrp, but regardless gets into erotic ERP with a hermaphrodite as a male, and doesn’t consider the possibility that maybe HE’s the one who’s got to bend over, then the harm is surely largely self-inflicted? Besides, I’m still not getting the same vibes from this RSP as You apparently are. There’s no mention of rape besides that unfortunate one line which may well be an attempt at wit gone wrong.
“…Joking about rape and treating it as amusing is a bad thing. A character based on rape fantasies is a bad thing(…)”
It’s not, and it’s not. Wow. Thought police much? A person can tell a jew joke without automatically being racist at heart. Similarly, a person can enjoy their kinks in an ERP without hurting anyone. It’s absolutely NOT a bad thing. Besides, “based on rape fantasies”? Hardly in this case. Could it be that You just see what You want to see? There is the line about sexual abuse of POWs in the past, clearly not very tasteful, but also pretty clearly not the focal point of the RSP. Then there’s the line about how the character is open to both male and female ERP partners, but expects to play the dom part. How is it based on rape-fantasies? And, again, even if it was, it’s still not a bad thing. Just don’t play with a character like that, or cut off the RP in a timely fashion. “Sorry, I’m not into rape fantasies. Bye.” see, it’s not hard to type at all.
As to why I feel the need to defend this? Probably largely boredom, but, as I said, I feel the posting of this RSP here is due to the personal dislikes of the poster, not because it’s a bad RSP, and last time I checked, that is not what the site is about. Also, the attitude of “it’s wrong because -I personally- think it’s bad, gross, evil, whatever” is one I don’t exactly treat with sympathy.
@Keed:
Roleplay is never chained to the lore; it operates in its boundries, as it damn well should. If something is logically possible and not extraordinarily improbable in a given setting, there is no reason to assume it can never happen -just because it’s offensive or disgusting or something like that-. That is not a worthless argument. That is how RPing in a given setting -works-. Otherwise, You probably can’t have birthday parties, plumbers, music festivals, motion sickness, and a million other things not explicitly mentioned in the lore but taken for granted. The “just because the lore doesn’t mention it…” rule goes for big, mostly lore-related things (like, say, existence of a whole new race). Not a detail like that (and as much as it’s a tragedy for the individual, it’s a detail in the grand scheme of things).
It’s a setting where sexual intercourse is posssible, it’s a setting where violence is not out of the ordinary, and it’s a setting where crime is not unheard of. Therefore, it’s a setting where rape happens, POW or not, right alongside of theft, murder, torture and child abuse.
If, as You say, other people argue that they -prefer- a setting where such a thing doesn’t happen, I’m afraid they’re out of luck, because they’re not playing in one that specifically forbids it, or even makes it implausible to happen. They can still choose not to interact with characters who touch on subjects they don’t particularly like, and that’s both the most they should be entitled to and the most they should ever need.
~Sylv
October 31, 2011 at 6:54 pm
I’m not sure how having the power to selectively interact with players whose core assumptions about the setting conflict with their own counts as being “out of luck.” I would think that players being out of luck would rely on players being -forced- to interact with players with conflicting ideas. But, as you yourself note, they can choose not to interact with characters who touch on certain subjects they don’t like, they would seem to be very lucky indeed.
It’s a setting where rape happens for some people, if they’re into the idea that rape can happen in that setting. It’s also a setting where rape doesn’t happen to anyone, if the players involved have no interest in such things.
“The “just because the lore doesn’t mention it…” rule goes for big, mostly lore-related things (like, say, existence of a whole new race). Not a detail like that (and as much as it’s a tragedy for the individual, it’s a detail in the grand scheme of things). ”
No, it doesn’t. Apply the rule consistently or stop wasting people’s time.
October 31, 2011 at 8:05 pm
So you think that racist jokes are cool and treating rape as an amusing thing is all fine and dandy and that to think other wise is behing ohnoes thought police and that the character totally isn’t a rapist for Erp’s sake that I’m just ~seeing things~…
Okay, concern-trolling is annoying. Thanks for wasting my time.
October 31, 2011 at 9:24 pm
You just literally said that if a character gets put into a rape scenario because of not having an addon it’s their own fault.
Go. Drink. Bleach.
November 8, 2011 at 11:45 am
“I didn’t mean to imply that it -should- be included, merely that there is no real reason to make it tabu. The character’s player is not implying sexual abuse of POWs is customary or even common – which would arguably be imposing on the lore -, but merely that it exists, which is just common sense. ”
It is common sense that sexual abuse of POWs exists in the real world. It is not common sense that it exists in the fake fantasy kitchen-sink setting. The fake fantasy kitchen-sink setting is allowed to have things occur or not occur in a way that deviates from the real world by virtue of it being a fake fantasy kitchen-sink setting. Metzen could, in fact, get up on the podium and say, “People don’t rape POWs in WoW. They just don’t do it. Even if you think they should,” and this would be the lore. It is not obligated to hew to realism.
Now, you can argue that it’s not -plausible- for a fantasy kitchen-sink setting to be in a global military conflict without some sort of soldier-rape occurring somewhere, and that it should be acknowledged as part of the setting, but other people can argue just as strongly that they prefer a setting in which this sort of thing doesn’t happen. Escapism and all that. And you can argue that, absent Metzen’s declaration or some explicit notice on the subject, you should be able to suppose it that it exists because that is what you prefer. But defending what we read into a setting by saying “Well it’s common sense that it would occur” is a worthless argument, and would be better replaced by, “My personal reading of the setting is that it happens, even if the lore doesn’t explicitly say it does.”
I have nothing else to say about whether or not the character implies that it’s out to rape other players or not. What bothers me about the RSP is the reading of the setting as including POW sexual abuse, and the idea that we must accept this because it maps to real-world experiences. No, no we must not.
October 31, 2011 at 5:17 pm
“It’s okay to push an axe into the face of an orc, ending a life – possibly in agony over hours, if he’s not immediately dead – but rape, now, that goes too far? What I’m saying is that the distinction is absolutely arbitrary. We take [i]those[/i] artrocities for granted, but [i]these[/i] here, they are distasteful.”
Sometimes you don’t have much choice but to kill the opposing side or be wiped out yourself.
Rape can never be justified. Ever. Its a warcrime for a reason, and its also a horribly triggering subject – we expect to see killing and whatnot when we pick up a game called ‘World of Warcraft’, but not rape, so to include a character that is so flippant about it is still offensive.
“In any case, my point stands – that one line does not make the RSP bad. Neither does it necessarily make the character bad, if unusual and awkward”
…Joking about rape and treating it as amusing is a bad thing. A character based on rape fantasies is a bad thing (Rape is based around controlling people, not ‘omfg im such a hawt dom’). A rapist draenei is sure as fuck gonna be a bad thing when the player doesn’t care to put thought into it (They’re an intersex Mary sue Erp alt, of _course_ its not going to include deeply thought-out justification and the remaining 10% of sturgeon’s law or whatever its called).
I’m not sure why you feel the need to defend this.
October 31, 2011 at 4:20 pm
“I’m not sure why you feel the need to defend this.”
Some people are so dedicated to the notion that judging is bad that they’ll jump to the defense of anyone ANYWHERE, for any reason.
Either that, or the rock that got chucked into the pack hit someone.
November 2, 2011 at 9:57 am
I would imagine it’s inclusion is to let others who are into rape fantasy roleplay know that they are into it too and that they can get together and have sexytimes. It also serves as a warning for people who are not into it to stay away. I will repeat. Not appropriate for the rating of the game but otherwise it makes perfect sense for them to include it in their description.
October 31, 2011 at 4:30 pm
*its pardon my terrible grammar
October 31, 2011 at 4:31 pm
Okay, rape is a horrible thing. I once wrote a paper on something and ended it with “..should be shot, survivors will be shot again.”
That’s how I feel about rape. Apparently love is a beautiful thing (dat ass) and rape basically just takes the beautiful out of it. And more than it should rape ends with murder, which is fucking retarded.
October 30, 2011 at 2:57 pm
The bulge is what I think it is…
A SWARM OF BEES?!
October 30, 2011 at 7:36 pm
Hoshit!
It’s not just any bees! It’s african murderbees! Run!
October 31, 2011 at 2:49 am
Bees. My God.
November 2, 2011 at 2:46 am
Hey, we Bees don’t hang around in the pants of the Alliance!
November 3, 2011 at 10:45 pm
NOT THE BEES!!!!
October 30, 2011 at 9:18 pm
I think Leigh’s giving this guy way too much credit. “Yuliana” here isn’t trying to be gritty, realistic, or villainous: he’s crowing about raping others because it gives him a boner IRL. The real suffering of others be damned, he needs to get his rocks off!
October 31, 2011 at 6:55 pm
Hm, I wonder what Lanuria will think whenever she sees you didn’t blur out the persons name. Is that one of her policies? I’m fine with it either way.
Also, to those saying that rape might not exist in the WoW universe, it might possibly be. The Wowpedia page for Half Orcs says that Half Orcs “genesis is usually violent and perverse”, and it reminds parents of “the horrible deeds each has performed on each other”, suggesting rape. It also says that it’s typical for people not to like Half Orcs because they don’t want to think about such horrible things. This mostly has to do with the RPG though, so whether it’s canon or not can be speculated, although I personally believe it can be possible.
October 31, 2011 at 7:41 pm
It might not exist dependent on the players involved and their assumption regarding the settings. Just like most things the lore leaves to interpretation.
October 31, 2011 at 8:08 pm
I think, (at least I -think- it’s true in D&D at least) that the genesis of half-orcs in most fantasy genres are a result of rape.
October 31, 2011 at 9:42 pm
Rape does exist in WoW… It’s explained in Garona’s story that she was born because Gul’dan bred one of his warriors with a Draen female… While pushing for their extermination.
That, and any half-orcs that are of age in the WoW universe today? Were likely born from the crimes that come after. The off-spring of unlucky survivors.
The Mok’nathal might be as well. Half-ogre half-orc… they’ve been at war for a long time if I’m not mistaken.
November 1, 2011 at 2:40 am
Ahh, more White Knights with completely invalid arguments.
They make good points, about the whole Your Kink is Not My Kink thing.
Problem is, that’s not what’s being discussed with this MRP here. What’s being discussed is that the writer here treats a very serious subject as nothing more than a punchline to their joke. Is that all your kink is to you as well, Sylvine? Or is it something you actually take seriously, and that you think others should take seriously as well?
Perhaps it’s best to just take Mark Twain’s advice here.
“I’d rather keep my mouth shut and have people think I’m an idiot, than to open my mouth and remove all doubt.”
November 1, 2011 at 1:59 pm
And that’s a problem…how? Are we not allowed to make jokes about serious subjects? I’m honestly amazed.
It is my most sincere opinion that You are overly sensitive on this one particular subject, blowing everything even remotely concerning it way out of proportion. No trolling. No being obnoxious for the sake of it. I know what it’s like to be passionately against something that one perceives as the heights of evil, but I honestly think this is just ridiculous.
~Sylv
November 1, 2011 at 3:34 pm
In that case, fuck you and good day.
November 1, 2011 at 6:36 pm
Elouqently put, and succinctly. I agree on every point, Gizzy. Forgive us, please, for not having a sense of humor about rape. How very foolish of us.
November 2, 2011 at 12:29 am
Yes, indeed. Eloquently, and very maturely. I guess I was expecting a little more of You people than “I do not agree with You, so fuck You”. Well, can’t condemn anyone for not having a broad sense of humour. Could condemn being rude about it, though. I don’t think that was necessary, but whatever floats Your boat.
~Sylv
November 2, 2011 at 11:08 am
I’m not sure why you would want to have a sense of humour about rape to begin with.
Either way, if someone is going to say ‘if you find this offensive then you’re just ~oversensitive~’ then no, I’m not going to waste my breath trying to be polite and reason with them because they’ve just insulted a shitload of people with that remark. I tried being logical or whatever you call it and got that remark out of them for it, so…
Meh, I find it a bit funny they’re going ‘omg that was rude now’ after calling others oversensitive. Yyyyyes.
November 2, 2011 at 11:38 am
Because it’s pretty healthy to have a sense of humour about pretty much everything? It’s a pretty good defensive mechanism, and helps You not getting offended every 2 seconds.
Okay, yes, I can see it now. We definitely have a communication problem we’re not gonna overcome. If You believe it’s insulting for me to say “Guys, relax, them’s just words, probably done in jest, too, and not even directed at You, You’re blowing this out of proportion”, then, yes, I am a very offensive and insulting person.
By the way, probably just as amusing as I have, which is the reason I included it in the first place. “Omg, You’re offensive! FUCK YOU!” – that was, indeed, as You put it, pretty funny.
~Sylv
November 2, 2011 at 1:07 pm
Rape is never funny. Ever. End of story.
November 2, 2011 at 6:16 pm
-that’s what she said.
(and in case it’s not obvious: Okay. It’s not funny to You. I get it. -I-, on the other hand, can laugh about it under specific circumstances – mostly when the specific act in question did not take place in reality – , therefore, yes, it is sometimes funny, just like everything else. And that’s more likely to be the end of story, I’m afraid.)
~Sylv
November 3, 2011 at 3:45 am
The appropriate response to “That is offensive” is not “You need to get a sense of humor”.
Also, just because you think nothing is too serious to be made into a joke doesn’t mean others SHOULD do so as well, and that anyone who disagrees with you has a problem possibly in need of professional treatment.
…Now, what’s really funny is that a devout religious type is telling you about this. THAT is ironic humor.
November 2, 2011 at 7:12 pm
Oh. I haven’t realized. What IS the appropriate response, then? I’d really like to know.
I am also not aware of implying anyone who disagrees with me “has a problem possibly in need of professional treatment”. I do, obviously, believe those who disagree with me should re-check their reasons. That’s… pretty much a given in any discussion.
And I still stand by my original point of: No, the fact that someone finds the casual implication of rape offensive does not mean an RSP is bad, and devoting pretty much the whole post to it instead of elaborating on the one legit issue here (i.e: how out of character it’s expected to be for a Draenei) stands in contrast to what I at least thought this site was about.
~Sylv
November 3, 2011 at 3:42 am
The key word is “casual”, Sylvine. “Casual”. Rape of prisoners is referenced not to warn you that this character is evil, but to provide verification for how Yuliana is equipped. Rape is all but promised in RP, unless you respond with equal brutality.
Furthermore, the point of an RSP is to give a person an idea of how the character should be seen/perceived. The “prison rape” bit is metagaming information. Am I expected to have talked to the prisoners, or heard of this going on? I cannot know it from just looking at this character, now can I? So why is it here, if not to shock people who find rape offensive (and titillate those who don’t)? That makes this RSP bad. Its cumulative effect is less about physical description and more about this character’s inner nastiness–which is poor writing, because it failed to serve the purpose.
This RSP is bad, and it’s a crying shame that these things have to be explained to you.
November 3, 2011 at 7:14 am
TL;DR and more to-the-point version of the above, because I haven’t had any coffee:
If I read your RSP and come away with “OMG rapist” instead of “female-appearing draenei who is muscular and has a suspicious-looking formation of her forward groinal anatomy”, your doin it rong. Start over.
November 3, 2011 at 7:54 am
That’s lovely. It should say so in the article, instead of three paragraphs of raaah rape bad rape ugly, in my opinion.
*shrugg* I also don’t agree with Your interpretations there on many points, but I have covered that in my other comments.
~Sylv
November 3, 2011 at 12:00 pm
Sooo you find people offended over people using rape humour and defending it funny…
Unless you’re a rape survivor, why the fuck would you need to laugh at rape as a defense mechanism? Even the people who use it for that purpose typically DON’T do it in an Mrp or public place because you know, you could take a shit on another rape survivor’s feelings that way and contribute towards society not taking it seriously in general.
November 3, 2011 at 10:52 am
I…uh…what….
See, that’s what I meant by a communication problem. I seriously don’t know where You get that from. I’m tempted to put the blame on You, naturally, though I don’t rule out the possibility I’m just not being clear enough myself. The flawed medium of conversation probably doesn’t help, either.
What I meant was: Yes, I find it amusing when You’re being arguably offensive about me being arguably offensive. I’m sorry if You don’t see anything amusing about it. I do.
What I also meant was: A general, broad sense of humor is a good defensive mechanism for all kinds of things. A lighthearted approach to a non-malicious, untargeted, unfocused side remark implying imaginary rape on imaginary characters just goes with the whole package.
I think this is the point of time where I’d like to more or less respectfully back off. I’ve brought my arguments to the table, and considered Yours, at least at the times where we weren’t talking over each other’s heads. I don’t think there’s much more to be gained here for any of us. Now, I’m fully aware that however I try to end it, it will sound whiny or trollish or condescending or rude or a couple more unpleasant things, so, yeah. I’ll leave it at that.
~Sylv
November 3, 2011 at 12:28 pm
“The flawed medium of conversation probably doesn’t help, either.”
Conversations are only flawed if people cannot make clear what they mean.
November 7, 2011 at 6:28 pm
…that’s what I was talking about.
Flawed _medium_ of conversation. Emphasis medium. Not conversation. Purely textual conversation, by lacking body language, tone of voice etc., is prone to misinterpretation. As You conveniently have demonstrated.
~Sylv
November 9, 2011 at 5:36 pm
http://www.baka-raptor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/tentacle-grape.jpg
November 1, 2011 at 4:42 pm
Well, it -is- World of Warcraft, not World of Rapecraft.
November 2, 2011 at 6:45 am
Hey, guys. I’ve seen this one mentioned before, as the owner of a “concubine”. I have a screenie of the character’s RSP from some months back, and I had been contemplating making it public until life took me away from Warcraft Sues and everything.
I think the “concubine” is Alevilne. I’ll have to check my files.
But at least I now know how Alevilne got preggers by her owner.
November 2, 2011 at 10:02 am
Hmm, now I want to RP with this person and pretend to seduce them only so that my character can cut off the thing’s dick, tan it into leather, and garrote them with it.
November 2, 2011 at 11:02 am
I’m guessing they would loldodge everything, in my experience people that Erp this and are a jackass about it like to godmod and be on top of everything ever.
November 2, 2011 at 11:39 am
So … You want Your character to mutilate and kill the other character because… why exactly? Because it’s a hermaphrodite? Or because of player knowledge? That’s GOOD roleplaying behaviour, for sure.
~Sylv
November 2, 2011 at 1:09 pm
I see you’ve met a stranger, Sylvine. Allow me to introduce you to Hyperbole.
Hyperbole is the making of broad overstatements for dramatic or humorous effect. Some folks don’t always agree with the extent of the effect, but nonetheless, Hyperbole is allowed to do this because, well, that’s its job description; there’s no point in paying a rhetorical device and then make it sit around doing nothing.
Also, hermaphrodites have both parts. Yuliana here is a very feminine man (self-described she-male), so Yuliana is not a hermaphrodite.
Finally, why on Azeroth do you keep capitalizing “you”? It’s very distracting.
November 2, 2011 at 4:47 pm
I stand corrected on the hermaphrodite issue. Thank You.
Allow me, in return, to correct You on the hyperbole, a figure I’m indeed not unfamiliar with, what with being a linguistics student and all. A hyperbole is an exaggeration used as a rethorical device that, indeed, is supposed to leave a stronger impression and not to be taken literally. For example, “I tried it a thosand times already”.
Here comes the key part, though: An exaggeration needs, well, a true statement to exaggerate. For our example, the true statement would be: “I tried many times already.” Now, what is the true statement for the supposed hyperbole of “I’d like my character to cut off the other character’s dick and garrote him with it”?
Now, of course I am aware that the poster wasn’t exactly serious about his desire to engage in RP with the character, to get him to bed and to mutilate and murder him. It was obviously just a colorful way of expressing disdain with the character, but the proposition itself was hardly serious. Indeed, one could say it was a joke. A joke about rape, mutilation and murder. Which, for some reason, eluded Grizzy in his reply, one way or the other. Despite being “not sure why you would want to have a sense of humour about rape to begin with.” Which I found amusing enough to comment on. I hope that covers everything.
Oh, no, wait, it doesn’t. The You thing. It’s both an online experiment as well as an excercise in being a little more considerate to people. On the philosophical side, it’s there to express that I don’t think I am better than You. On the mechanical side, having to (slightly) pause every time to capitalize “You” makes me more likely to actually consider the person behind the screen; doesn’t always work. On the linguistic side, the capitalization of “I” is bloody arbitrary and there’s no reason not to either abolish it altogether (bad idea since it has most probably originated due to the graphical weakness of the lowercase i) or extend it to the other direct pronoun as well. I do bear a slight hope that it might eventually catch on.
~Sylv
November 3, 2011 at 4:20 am
That you immediately reference your unfinished studies as some claim of superiority over others demonstrates an attitude that, while permitting you to understand the functionality of language, will prevent you from being able to connect with people sufficiently to communicate. It’s the same thing that causes you to be unable to understand why people would find sexual assault utterly humorless.
It’s the same thing that led you to give an ultra-picky correction when I was not wrong in a broad sense. (Whatsa matter, can’t take a joke? Maybe you need to get a sense of humor there…)
As to your capitalization of “you”, I’ll give you two reasons why you should consider dropping it. One is that capitalization of any pronoun but “I” implies that the object thereof is a deity, so it just makes you look peculiar anyway. The other, more important one is that it isn’t really doing for you what you claim; you’ve demonstrated a complete lack of respect for anyone’s opinions with your refrain of “why so serious?” It just looks pretentious.
November 3, 2011 at 7:47 am
It’s always nice to find out what I’ve demonstrated. I urge You to analyze Your own posts with a similar approach. You might be surprised
It’s interesting though how You apparently missed the whole point of that build-up, even though I attempted to explain it later on. I’m really kind of in a lose-lose situation here. If I explain, I’m a whiny asshole, since it’ll probably devolve into a “no, U!” thing; if I don’t, I’m a loser idiot. The joy of internet arguments. And just saying “Fuck it, I’m leaving” is not just hard due to evolutionary processes – I find it intellectually dishonest.
I guess I will take my demonstrably pretentious, respectless attitude out of this argument, then. It’s rather unlikely I’ll be able to change Your mind about that anyways; it appears to be a pretty well-set conclusion, so it’ll spare us both some time.
~Sylv
November 3, 2011 at 12:56 pm
Also, what’s up with the new Pokemon avatars? o_o
November 2, 2011 at 11:03 am
WordPress gives a buncha different options for pictures for people without avatars uploaded. I decided to swap from the weird boxes that look like something a smartphone scans to these guys.
November 2, 2011 at 9:04 pm
I find myself agreeing with Sylvine. Not necessarily on the “This character is fine” thing. I think it’s tacky and pointless to yell out your sexual proclivities in a medium like this.
No, what I mostly agree on is a thing that’s practically irrelevant to the RSP. Humour about all things. (I simply don’t think humour was any kind of focus during the writing of the RSP)
Being able to laugh about all things is indeed an excellent defense mechanism.
It takes the edge off an issue and makes it something less dangerous to speak of. In my experience (I have several female friends and a male friend who have been raped), being able to treat an issue like this in a light-hearted manner (not necessarily doubling over in hysterical laughter, just… not as a courtroom-mood taboo) helps being able to deal with it.
What there has been a general consensus about is that being hushy-hushy and teary-eyed and overly sympathetic, as well as swearing vengeance and making all the “socially acceptable” “rapists should be castrated”-noises is about as comforting and comfortable as being a paraplegic and having your handicap tiptoed around.
My personal opinion is that ethnicity-jokes, jokes about murder, rape, dismemberment and suicides can all be in perfectly good fun as long as you keep a bit of a level head with who you tell them around. And when it’s a “victimless crime” (here implying imaginary events taking place between imaginary people in an imaginary world).. I honestly don’t see the big deal. Yes, some people might get mortally offended. Some rape survivors might even get flashbacks. There are very, very few things in this world that will not offend and/or enrage some people. If we’re going to shy away from all of them, we’re going to have a hard time going to the store to buy bread.
Everyone in the modern world knows that rape is bad and that it shouldn’t be done. It’s a point that’s been driven home quite sufficiently. But stop trying to hammer it into people’s heads that it shouldn’t be talked about in anything but the most gloomy and doomy manner. Some people find it easier to deal with / discuss the horrible shit happening in the world by being light-hearted about it.
Finally, pardon my undoubtedly flawed grammar. Not my first language etc.
November 4, 2011 at 5:50 am
“Everyone in the modern world knows that rape is bad and that it shouldn’t be done.”
I think you’d be surprised how often this remains false.
It’s wonderful that your anecdotal experiences have justified your attitude – funny how they tend to do that – but right now you are in mixed company. You don’t know who’s reading and commenting on this thread, and you don’t know what their experiences are, or if they’re the sort of person who will react to rape humor as a trigger to a flashback or take it seriously in some other fashion. You don’t get to behave the same way that you would amongst company that you know accepts this behavior. I mean, I suppose you -could- behave that way, but then if someone gets upset and you tell them they shouldn’t be offended for whatever reason, you’re just being an asshole.
Joke amongst the people that you know accept the jokes, fine, but don’t assume we can all accept the jokes, or that we even want to do so.
November 4, 2011 at 3:11 pm
Allright, “Every reasonably socially intelligent person in the modern world etc”.
My experiences CAUSE my attitude. Had I different experiences, doubtlessly my attitudes would be different. And I am voicing my personal opinion on a matter, just like you. You dislike it and disagree, that’s entirely fine, but I’m not going to moderate myself into oblivion on the off-chance that my opinion might cause someone terrible anguish. If someone reading this are prone to such flashbacks, then first of all they are reading a site terribly unsuited to their sensibilities. This kind of topic isn’t exactly rare fare in the RSPs covered here on RPL. Furthermore, if a discussion like this can trigger their minds… Well, this is going to sound terrible, but then what are they doing on the internet? The internet is a TERRIBLE place, full of Rule 34, where rape and worse is bandied about like a frisbee. Hell, just watching the news could trigger people with that kind of sensitivity. If we’re going to cater to the most sensitive denominator in all cases, we can never talk.
November 4, 2011 at 6:07 pm
“Well, this is going to sound terrible, but then what are they doing on the internet? The internet is a TERRIBLE place, full of Rule 34, where rape and worse is bandied about like a frisbee”
I’ve heard people joke about it irl, and some people just can’t socialize comfortably offline for whatever reason. So…I don’t know, damned if you do, damned if you don’t?
Either way, its not like keeping rape jokes to people you know who are peachy with it is hard.
November 4, 2011 at 7:33 pm
Damned if you do and damned if you don’t is a nice key phrase here, I think. Because no matter where you are and no matter what your opinion is, there will be those who will think that opinion makes you the lovechild of Y’golonac and Hitler.
November 4, 2011 at 8:29 pm
No, I expect such an offspring would be able to own the things they say. It wouldn’t blame people for being offended by offensive statements it makes as a defense mechanism.
November 5, 2011 at 12:25 am
I rest my case.
November 5, 2011 at 5:21 am
Actually, compared UNFAVOURABLY to said. Amazing.
November 5, 2011 at 6:01 am
Sometimes opinions and actions are wrong and need to be questioned.
S’not to say survivors shouldn’t joke if it takes the edge off of things for them for a bit but eh, not too hard to just keep things between some people and not a ‘public’ venue.
November 5, 2011 at 12:42 pm
What are you talking about? Of course it’s hard! So very, very hard.
I mean, it would require people to actually think before blurting out whatever comes to mind. That’s just unreasonable!
-_-
November 5, 2011 at 3:48 pm
You fail by default by bringing up Hitler.
Thanks for playing byebye.
Can’t remember the name of the law.
But it’s a law on the internet that if you let a discussion run long enough someone will always bring him up. No matter what context. And that you just did means you fail by default.
November 7, 2011 at 6:13 pm
Whatever absolves you of responsibility for your own statements, I suppose.
November 5, 2011 at 12:22 am
Er, what? Have I somehow tried to escape responsibility for anything? I stand by my statements, however wrongbad they must seem to you, don’t doubt that. I actually do mean what I say, and without any malicious/harmful/insulting/offensive intent towards anyone, despite what you seem to assume. I’m not trying to be someone’s enemy here, I just have an opinion about something.
November 5, 2011 at 5:25 am
“And I am voicing my personal opinion on a matter, just like you”
Opinions can be wrong, they are not sacred. Just because it’s an opinion doesn’t mean it’s above reproach.
“but it’s just an opinion, it’s not hurting anyone” is a method to escape responsibility and expect to get away with it. Opinions can hurt people, opinions can be damaging.
November 6, 2011 at 12:30 am
“Opinions can be wrong, they are not sacred. Just because it’s an opinion doesn’t mean it’s above reproach.”
Exactly. It’s nice to see that You DO get it.
~Sylv
November 6, 2011 at 6:43 am
Thought you were done…?
November 6, 2011 at 9:23 am
Eh. She’s trollin’. S’why I haven’t responded to what she’s said since I made my stance clear. She isn’t going to be done until we stop feeding her.
November 6, 2011 at 1:40 pm
Fun fact: The word “trolling” comes from fishing. It’s a baiting technique. As such, accusing someone of trolling when he is not is trolling in itself. Which, ironically, could mean that You managed to troll me succesfully… I’ll give You the benefit of doubt, though, and assume You seriously believe people who happen to disagree with some local consensus are all trolls.
@Gizzy: *le sigh* I said I was done with that argument thread. I don’t do the “I’ma quit internets forever” routine. I happened to read Vargfar’s comment after I left my last replies, and was curious how that one goes, since his sentiment (about that one topic, at least) seems to be the same as mine, but he put it better than I did. Then I wanted to point something out to Tiradell. Unfortunately, apparently, I’m a troll, so it kinda went past. Oh well.
~Sylv
November 6, 2011 at 6:27 pm
Quote from you earlier Sylvine.
“Now, I’m fully aware that however I try to end it, it will sound whiny or trollish or condescending or rude or a couple more unpleasant things, so, yeah. I’ll leave it at that.”
I think that says it all indeed.
November 7, 2011 at 6:30 pm
I must say i’m a little disheartened that you chose to reveal names again, if only this once. It was the main gripe me and many others had about this site and to see that you don’t even take it very seriously is quite disappointing.
Onto the MRP, I agree that mentioning rape that casually is a little tactless, but it isnt as if she mentioned it in great detail, it was one line. Also, it seems to just be an everyday Goldshirian, I mean this sort of thing is hardly rare there.
November 4, 2011 at 6:05 am
“I must say i’m a little disheartened that you chose to reveal names again, if only this once. It was the main gripe me and many others had about this site and to see that you don’t even take it very seriously is quite disappointing.”
THIS!!!
Please don’t show names anymore!
November 7, 2011 at 7:11 am
If this character took itself remotely seriously I’d have not done it.
November 7, 2011 at 8:39 am
Personally I don’t see how that would matter.
But your choice.
November 7, 2011 at 6:02 pm
No offense Var, but it seems a little low of you to turn around the second Lan’s out the door and go back on the rule you guys supposedly made together. If you don’t like the whole thing with not posting names, then you probably shouldn’t have gone through with it in the first place. Not really showing much of a professional, united front here.
IMO, either it’s okay to post everyone’s name, or no one’s name at all. You shouldn’t get to pick and choose based on your preference or what mood you’re in. While I agree that this RSP is complete trash, would you have posted it with the name if Lan had been sitting right next to you? This just comes off as malicious. You’re better than this petty crap.
November 8, 2011 at 9:59 am
Did you think that was the actual story of the post’s generation and not a fiction designed for the character of Varendil I play online?
As for the name blurring thing, I’ll blur names for bad RP, because ideally people are going to recover and we don’t want to hamstring their characters for life because of some mark of shame here. On the other hand, flippant and casual treatment of rape, I’d like to apply some shame for. Omissions to the blur policy won’t be a common thing.
November 8, 2011 at 3:00 pm
*pants and leans over out of breath*
Holy crap that’s a lot of reading. I have one thing to say:
It’s fantasy and we have idiots, let them live in their upside down peace and we leave them alone! Or at least shoo them away with flyswatters.
O_o
November 6, 2011 at 7:13 pm
Not yet read everything. Had a busy week…
All I can say sofar is…
Rape is not a backstory, it has no place in a setting where small children can see it, and that this Sylvine is trying to justify it with faulty arguments is just stupid.
Your an idiot for not understanding why rape is always bad, no matter the setting. Theres a reason all decent humanbeings are revolted by the mere idea. That we are revolted by it in any setting and that it always has a large impact on a story in which it is written, where the one being raped is mentally damaged (if you’ll pardon the word can’t think of a better right now) for a very long time, if not for the rest of their life.
Sylvine. In my eyes by trying to make right what is crooked, (as a dutch saying goes transalted to english, ) you are not a decent humanbeing and you should realize that probably most people will be thinking the same here, and that your best recourse is to just not talk anymore.
November 7, 2011 at 7:10 am
Yes, You are totally correct. I’ll shut up because someone thinks I’m not a decent human being due to… my opinion on touchy subjects in imaginary worlds?
That’s cute.
Especially since it’s condemnation without even reading properly. Here, I’ll summarize my points to You:
1. This entry is, in my opinion, less about bad RSPs than about “rape is bad”. Again. Which is not only beating a dead horse, it’s also charging at open doors.
2. There are no topics that need to be tiptoed around by default. There are no topics that cannot be the core of a joke, metaphor, description, or anything else. Whether it’s in good taste or appropriate for the occasion or audience is open to debate and different from case to case.
3. Someone being offended by something does not automatically mean it has to be tabu. People get offended by lots of things all the time. As evidenced here, even by mere implication of rape upon undefined, imaginary prisoners; an implication which very likely wasn’t even deliberately put there for itself but rather was an attempt at wit gone bad, not a graphic description, not even a factual statement, not a focal point of the RSP or character. A _linguistically_ tame side remark.
Looking back at my posts, I see no mention of “4. Lol gaiz rape is totally fine grow a pair lololol I rape people all the tiem and so shuld U rofl their litrary asking 4 it”. There is no mention of this, because contrary to the belief of some, I am neither a troll nor intellectually challenged. What say! You mean forcing sexual deeds on someone unwilling, resulting in pain, disgust, and physical and emotional trauma in the latter, is a bad thing? I wouldn’t have effing guessed!
I guess I can’t exactly blame You for assuming such an elementary thing is not understood. After all, I always thought the elementary thing of “[evil] IRL = bad, [evil] in fiction = okay, jokes about [evil] = okay” is also pretty self-explainatory. I can, however, blame You for merely skimming through my posts and assuming I don’t understand that rape is a horrible crime. I am not defending rapists. I _AM_ defending people who, for whatever reason, decide to include rape in their fiction, because it’s their bloody right. Which brings me back to point 1.
This RSP is not exactly good. It lacks some key elements in the physical description, it contains meta information. Though, credit where it’s due, it is at least short and pretty to the point. Okay.
This Character is not exactly good, as far as one can tell. Extremely unconventional for a Draenei; pretty obviously a rather flat proxy for ERP purposes, though, of course, one can’t exactly say before playing with him – but it’s a pretty safe bet. Okay.
But I don’t see much about that in the entry. Which was my main complaint in my original post, along with the very true “offensive is a subjective term” statement.
~Sylv
November 8, 2011 at 12:23 am
“my opinion on touchy subjects in imaginary worlds?”
While WoW is indeed imaginary. Real people are reading this. People from the real world who may know people who got raped. Ergo. That point is stupid and mute.
“1. This entry is, in my opinion, less about bad RSPs than about “rape is bad”. Again. Which is not only beating a dead horse, it’s also charging at open doors.”
Very astute of you…
Rape is indeed bad. And from the reactions you have gotten you should realize that it is not a dead horse. So again, stupid argument as the vast majority of reactions here show. People can get offended over rape easily for a reason. Why are you not understanding this?
“2. There are no topics that need to be tiptoed around by default. There are no topics that cannot be the core of a joke, metaphor, description, or anything else. Whether it’s in good taste or appropriate for the occasion or audience is open to debate and different from case to case.”
I hope you can still say that when someone you know personally gets raped.
As you say yourself, there is a place and a setting for such jokes, on that I can agree, amonsgt your personal friends in private, no problem. But in full view of the public is never the place for such a joke about something like rape.
Basically your answering your own question here. Theres a time and place for everything.
“3. Someone being offended by something does not automatically mean it has to be tabu. People get offended by lots of things all the time. As evidenced here, even by mere implication of rape upon undefined, imaginary prisoners; an implication which very likely wasn’t even deliberately put there for itself but rather was an attempt at wit gone bad, not a graphic description, not even a factual statement, not a focal point of the RSP or character. A _linguistically_ tame side remark.”
Agreed, not everything that offends people is a taboo.
Also, people are not offended here by the races, they clearly exist in WoW, so theres no point in getting offended about them. So not sure where your getting that from…
What you again fail to understand is that society has marked rape as a taboo though. And that is for a reason. I suggest you talk to a rape victim to understand why, as you clearly seem to fail at having the empathy for this right now.
“Looking back at my posts, I see no mention of “4. Lol gaiz rape is totally fine grow a pair lololol I rape people all the tiem and so shuld U rofl their litrary asking 4 it”. There is no mention of this, because contrary to the belief of some, I am neither a troll nor intellectually challenged. What say! You mean forcing sexual deeds on someone unwilling, resulting in pain, disgust, and physical and emotional trauma in the latter, is a bad thing? I wouldn’t have effing guessed!”
I didnot imply you did. Sorry if it came over as such. What I implied is that you are trying to make it right to joke about it. Which in my eyes is just as dangerous and bad.
Nor did I imply you are intellectually challenged.
All I implied is that in my eyes you are not a decent humanbeing if you donot understand why rape is not a thing to be joked about. I maybe should have added ‘In a public setting’ But I kinda thought that implied by default. Amongst friends theres indeed nothing that can be made fun off. But in public is not the setting for this. Again. I think this implied by default.
Then I fail to understand that if you agree it is a bad thing. Why do you keep defending it as something that can be joked about?
“I guess I can’t exactly blame You for assuming such an elementary thing is not understood. After all, I always thought the elementary thing of “[evil] IRL = bad, [evil] in fiction = okay, jokes about [evil] = okay” is also pretty self-explainatory. I can, however, blame You for merely skimming through my posts and assuming I don’t understand that rape is a horrible crime. I am not defending rapists. I _AM_ defending people who, for whatever reason, decide to include rape in their fiction, because it’s their bloody right. Which brings me back to point 1.”
This is just bs. As I said earlier. Theres a reason that no matter the setting, rape has a huge impact on any story, no matter if it is a true story, or one set only in fiction.
Even in fiction books rape is a huge deal, and the one being raped suffers from it. I would think this pretty self-explainatory.
Problem is. It is not their right to include this in their fanfic within WoW. The game belongs to Blizz, and the age settings for the game donot allow for rape to be brought into it.
If you bring it outside of WoW to a fanwebsite. Sure. But within WoW it falls under the ToS. And rape is not a thing Blizz is gonna like.
I’ve said this before on this website. The game time you buy is not yours to do with as you wish. You only rent it from Blizz. At no point do you own it. As such, you have to play by Blizz’s rules.
So again, stupid argument made often on this website is stupipd and mute.
You might have noticed if you go through the previous posts I have now read your remaining posts aswell. As I answered a few more times. I still stand by my initial statement.
p.s. Thanks for thinking me a deity btw, but you can call me you. You have been pointed to this before. So here I am doubting your capability to understand what Lurky the Spork said regarding capitalization of the word you.
“This RSP is not exactly good. It lacks some key elements in the physical description, it contains meta information. Though, credit where it’s due, it is at least short and pretty to the point. Okay.
This Character is not exactly good, as far as one can tell. Extremely unconventional for a Draenei; pretty obviously a rather flat proxy for ERP purposes, though, of course, one can’t exactly say before playing with him – but it’s a pretty safe bet. Okay.”
These points I agree with.
“But I don’t see much about that in the entry. Which was my main complaint in my original post, along with the very true “offensive is a subjective term” statement.”
And what you seem to fail to understand is that rape is offensive to be used in a public setting, because society at large agrees on it. Is that arbitrary? Yes! No doubt about that. But theres a reason that rape is a taboo.
Rape is something the victim will suffer from for the rest of their lives.
Murder too is bad, but the victim dies, hopefully quick. But we as a society view murder worse if the victim has been made to suffer first.
It is a taboo, because people suffer greatly from it. The greater the suffering done by a humanbeing on another humanbeing, either mentally, physically or both, the greater the taboo is.
Rape is one of those examples where the victim suffers not only physically, but mostly mentally a great deal for the rest of their lives. That is why it is not something to be joked about in a public setting.
And that you donot understand this basic human sensibility makes you undecent in my eyes. Every modern society views rape as bad. The western foremost among these. And as that is the one I assume both of us live in. Lets just keep it focused on that society.
November 8, 2011 at 3:32 am
“While WoW is indeed imaginary. Real people are reading this. People from the real world who may know people who got raped. Ergo. That point is stupid and mute.”
Incidentally, that’s pretty much what I think about Your point. Applying self-censorship because someone who reads might get offended is -to me- quite clearly not the way to go. You do have the right not to be subjected to offensive content – close the thing and don’t read it again! But noone has the right to just not be offended. I have to deal with consequences of what I am saying, but YOU have to deal with what I am saying. That’s how it goes. You can report me for it, criticize me for it, ostracize me for it, start a legal action or smear campaign against me for it, or even bash my face in. Fair enough. But You can’t preventively demand from me not to say it.
“…And from the reactions you have gotten you should realize that it is not a dead horse…”
It -is- beating a dead horse, and You’re all kinda beating it collectively. Every civilized person in the world realizes that rape is a bad thing. It’s one of the very few things in the world which ARE mostly black and white, with -very- few grey areas around the edged. Everyone knows. Everyone agrees. That people still find every mention of it offensive doesn’t make the case itself less of a dead horse.
“I hope you can still say that when someone you know personally gets raped.
As you say yourself, there is a place and a setting for such jokes, on that I can agree, amonsgt your personal friends in private, no problem. But in full view of the public is never the place for such a joke about something like rape.”
I do hope that I can say it even if -I- ever get raped. And if I can’t, I’ll probably be seeking therapy. Because I understand that the world doesn’t revolve around me, as much as I’d like to think it does, and that a personal tragedy doesn’t make a topic taboo in the public.
Hell, ESPECIALLY in the public. The public is this huge, anonymous melting pot where everything might be said, implied, joked about. The public is basically 4chan IRL.
You do understand that You are implying newspapers shouldn’t report about rape, that books shouldn’t be written about it, films shouldn’t be made about it? Even if You are not aware of it – You are. Because those things make rape a topic. That means people will talk about it, joke about it, draw parallels to it.
Besides, Your appeal to personal experience doesn’t refute my point. I said there is no topic that has to be tiptoed around -by default-. If You are in the presence of someone who recently made the horrible experience, that’s not “default”. That’s specific knowledge. And it is Your choice what to do then.
“Also, people are not offended here by the races, they clearly exist in WoW, so theres no point in getting offended about them. So not sure where your getting that from…”
I’m… not sure where YOU get that from. I didn’t mention it in my response, I think?
“What you again fail to understand is that society has marked rape as a taboo though. And that is for a reason. I suggest you talk to a rape victim to understand why, as you clearly seem to fail at having the empathy for this right now.”
I have all the empathy for actual rape victims. I also understand that I’m not doing them a favour by tiptoeing around the subject. “We don’t talk about it” is hardly ever the first step to improve a situation. And, believe it or not, “We don’t joke about it” isn’t, either.
“…Why do you keep defending it as something that can be joked about?”
Because -everything- can be joked about. And should be, too. You seem to have the misconception that joking about a crime is the same ridiculing the victim. It’s not, or at least not necessarily. Some jokes are like that, true, capitalizing on shock value. But for the most part, joking about a subject serves to take the edge off it, to raise conciousness about it, to ease its way in as a topic in the metapool of topics. Oh, and it can be funny, too. That’s also a point.
I’m going to assume You’ve heard a typical catholic priest joke in Your life. Probably laughed about it, too. Jokes about grown men, figures of authority and supposedly servants of god, abusing their position and the trust put in them to sexually harass children. For all practical purposes – jokes about the rape of children. If You put it like that, that’s horrible! If You tell the joke, You’ll probably get a laugh. In fact, Stephen Fry made a joke on it on the intellect² debate on whether the catholic church is a force of good in the world. A public forum and an intellectual debate, no less! And he did it while bringing attention to the hideous crimes of the clergymen in Ireland. And, yes, moral outrage was the result. But outrage at the crime, not the joke! And surely, that’s a healthy attitude.
And here’s the thing: You can’t say this joke is okay, but that joke is not. Because that’s opinion. If some jokes are allowed, ALL jokes are allowed, and let the joke-teller live with the consequences.
“Problem is. It is not their right to include this in their fanfic within WoW. The game belongs to Blizz, and the age settings for the game donot allow for rape to be brought into it.
If you bring it outside of WoW to a fanwebsite. Sure. But within WoW it falls under the ToS. And rape is not a thing Blizz is gonna like.”
Leave that to Blizz to decide. I actually went and read the ToS of WoW, just for You. And I assume You are talking about this:
“(ii) That incorporates vulgar language or which are otherwise offensive, defamatory, obscene, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;”
and this:
“(viii) Related to drugs, sex, alcohol, or criminal activity;”
Under the subsection “A: Rules Related to Usernames and Guild Designations.”
Names. Guilds.
Or maybe You’re talking about this?
“you may not:
(i) Transmit or post any content or language which, in the sole and absolute discretion of Blizzard, is deemed to be offensive, including without limitation content or language that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, hateful, sexually explicit, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable”
You want to bring that as an argument? Okay. It’s a weak one. “Blizzard may deem it offensive” is something You can post under _every_ sentence, even “Kittens are cute”.
I would, however, like to point You to some of the wording here: “Unlawful, abusive, vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit”.
Wanna play a thief? Unlawful; enjoy Your ban. Want to play an alcoholic? Probably abusive; enjoy Your ban. Want to use profanities when Your character is angry? Vulgar; enjoy Your ban. If You take that BLANKET STATEMENT designed by Blizz’s lawyers to cover their asses as an argument, You can’t roleplay anything but good characters. Well, except for robin-hood-like thieves, ’cause that’s unlawful. Snap. Do You really want to go there?
Funny enough, though, the line in question here, that huge, offensive line: “The bulge in her pants is what You think it is, as many unwilling prisoners of war will attest.”… is neither vulgar, nor is it obscene, and it’s definitely not sexually explicit.
Whose point is moot, again?
“And what you seem to fail to understand is that rape is offensive to be used in a public setting, because society at large agrees on it. Is that arbitrary? Yes! No doubt about that. But theres a reason that rape is a taboo.
Rape is something the victim will suffer from for the rest of their lives.
Murder too is bad, but the victim dies, hopefully quick. But we as a society view murder worse if the victim has been made to suffer first.
It is a taboo, because people suffer greatly from it. The greater the suffering done by a humanbeing on another humanbeing, either mentally, physically or both, the greater the taboo is.”
Does it? I dunno. I read a lot about rape on the news. I’ve been to a lecture at my university about female genital mutilation rituals and what can be done to prevent those. I’ve been tranlsating passages from an autobiography of a woman who was a victim of rape and described her road to coping with it. Then there’s also the many comedians and cabaretists who thematize it and, yes, joke about it. As well as the already mentioned attempts to bring attention to the abuse of children by churchmen, often clad in satire. WE are talking about it. In public. Hell, Varendil and Lanuria like to bring it up on this site every now and again; ask THEM if THEY care whether bringing it up will trigger a flashback in one of his readers!
It’s amusing how You speak of my lack of empathy for rape victims, yet take murder so lightly. “Murder is bad, but the vicrim dies”, so that makes it less bad? Doesn’t the victim have friends? A spouse who mourns him? Children who depended on him? Elderly parents in need of his support? You are seriously claiming that rape is for some reason generally worse than murder, or at least more worthy to be a social taboo… why?
I have my hunches and a pretty strong opinion about the why, but it’s besides the point.
“And that you donot understand this basic human sensibility makes you undecent in my eyes.”
Fair enough. My sensibility extends to what I know, not to what might be. If someone comes up to me and says: “Please don’t thematize it while I’m around, I’ve been a victim, and it’s been hard”, I’m probably not responding with “That’s what she said”. But I am not censoring myself nor anyone else pre-emptively on the off-chance someone will take grave offense. Because in the end, that kind of behaviour is far more dangerous, and much, MUCH more evil results from abiding taboos than from breaking them.
~Sylv
November 8, 2011 at 6:17 pm
Well-formulated, well-reasoned and dare I say it, a lot more civilized and unoffensive than a lot of the people decrying you. I tip my hat to you.
November 8, 2011 at 7:23 pm
White knighting a white knight for someone who advertises a rapist character for cybersex. Aren’t you just the cream of the crop.
November 9, 2011 at 3:03 am
It’s not opinions and arguments, agreement or disagreement anymore – it’s labels now. Misapplied, too. Developed an unpopular, contrary opinion? White knighting. Insiting that it’s genuine? Troll. I suspect someone’s gonna suspect wingmanship/sock puppeting next. Le sigh.
~Sylv
November 9, 2011 at 6:09 am
Riding someone’s nutsack, trying to talk around blatant bullshit by spouting more sewage out both sides of your mouth. Call it what you want, son, but you’re not worth the five minutes it’d take me to verbally wreck your shit.
You can come back and talk when you can do so as though you have more than a cerebellum and fat globs in your skull.
November 9, 2011 at 10:05 pm
Yes, I think that about says everything. Thank You for clarification.
~Sylv
November 9, 2011 at 11:59 pm
Funnily enough, this post made you sound more or less EXACTLY like whatshisface.. Madespound-something-or-other. All abuse, no content.
November 10, 2011 at 10:23 am
Once the point’s been made with perfect clarity to anyone with a functioning primate brain, I consider myself at liberty to mock those who display a lack thereof.
November 13, 2011 at 6:51 am
If this is what you choose to take from what I have said, there is no more I can do. I wish you nothing but a good day and hope you can find some other way to deal with opinions than slag people off.
November 9, 2011 at 11:57 am
Thank You very much.
~Sylv
November 9, 2011 at 6:10 am
“t -is- beating a dead horse, and You’re all kinda beating it collectively. Every civilized person in the world realizes that rape is a bad thing. It’s one of the very few things in the world which ARE mostly black and white, with -very- few grey areas around the edged. Everyone knows. Everyone agrees. That people still find every mention of it offensive doesn’t make the case itself less of a dead horse.”
Just because you say it is a dead horse doesnot make it so. It clearly isn’t for alot of people. That it might be to you is of no consequence in this matter.
November 9, 2011 at 2:51 am
“You do understand that You are implying newspapers shouldn’t report about rape, that books shouldn’t be written about it, films shouldn’t be made about it? Even if You are not aware of it – You are. Because those things make rape a topic. That means people will talk about it, joke about it, draw parallels to it.”
No. That’s not what I’m implying. Don’t look for meaning in words that I have not written.
I am saying. It is not something to make jokes about in a normal public setting.
As I said in my previous post. There is a time and place for everything. A random public place like WoW is not that place.
November 9, 2011 at 2:54 am
“And here’s the thing: You can’t say this joke is okay, but that joke is not. Because that’s opinion. If some jokes are allowed, ALL jokes are allowed, and let the joke-teller live with the consequences.”
This is just too stupid for words in normal Human society.
November 9, 2011 at 2:56 am
“It’s amusing how You speak of my lack of empathy for rape victims, yet take murder so lightly. “Murder is bad, but the vicrim dies”, so that makes it less bad? Doesn’t the victim have friends? A spouse who mourns him? Children who depended on him? Elderly parents in need of his support? You are seriously claiming that rape is for some reason generally worse than murder, or at least more worthy to be a social taboo… why?”
Right here I assumed it pretty obvious that I was speaking from the point of view of the victim. Apparently I need to make that more clear to you.
November 9, 2011 at 3:00 am
If those are the replies You want to make to my answer, I think I can be quite satisfied indeed.
~Sylv
November 9, 2011 at 5:54 am
Two points:
a) “Moot” is the word you’re looking for. For the most part I give you a pass ’cause, hell, I only speak one language, but th’more you know!
b) Rape being taboo is not arbitrary, There is absolutely nothing arbitrary about a social construct rejecting that which is objectively destructive to its members. Whether people are supposed to drive on the left side of the road or the right? That’s arbitrary.
November 9, 2011 at 12:25 am
Stupidest thing is. I know it’s supposed to be moot… I fails.
November 9, 2011 at 2:48 am
The fact that there are breathing, supposedly human beings that don’t understand why it’s worse than gauche to use “HAY GIUSE I TTLY RAEPED A SHITLOAD OF PPL, /FLIRT 2 B NXT ^_^” in an RP description mod just….
November 8, 2011 at 4:29 pm
The fact that there are people who don’t understand that there’s a difference between that parody and the factual RSP makes -me- wish they’d act on what they don’t want anymore sometimes =P
Seriously =/ I don’t even do ERP, and I’m not that daft. Surely it’s pretty clear that, for a CS char, this is neither out of the ordinary nor horribly wrong? Surely it’s self-evident that chars like this are more or less in a perpetual pornworld, they expect chars who CS with them to be part of the perpetual pornworld, and there can be no rape in the pornworld since there’s no such thing as a de facto unwilling participant? That even the “no, what are You doing, stop” of the CS proxy is a “yes, please” of the horny player, more or less by default, because there’s no such thing as “I don’t want to have sex” for a pure CS character?
I’ve never typed as much as a line of ERP in my whole life, and even I understand this *shakes head*.
~Sylv
November 8, 2011 at 6:38 pm
You keep typing as if you understand what you’re responding to. It’s really rather sad.
November 9, 2011 at 12:26 am
What he said.
November 9, 2011 at 3:00 am
He being Oriseus…
November 9, 2011 at 3:01 am
Eeeh. Kinda have to lean towards Sylvine’s comments here, actually.
It’s a bad MRP by default, since it’s lore-breaking and cringeworthy. But from the perspective of a bad -MRP-, I’d be calling it such FOR BEING lore-breaking, not for the rape allusion.
This is -not- a debate on whether rape is bad. Of course it is. Should rape be avoided altogether in backstories then? Well. From a personal perspective, I’d avoid it. Most people don’t seem to know how to play it, or understand the effects. It ends up cringeworthy. Would I call any MRP that uses it bad for that reason? No (although in general, there’s enough else wrong with it to make up for it, but whatever).
Making it into a joke? Poor taste, yes. But it’s a frikkin’ draenei hentei-monster, you were expecting anything else?
Calling Sylvine a bad person for his/her argument, which, while a tad pompous, was actually perfectly reasonable, ( and, in my opinion, didn’t deserve nearly the amount of vitrolic, and occassionally deliberately misunderstand, ire poured on the person behind the writing) is a bit..over the top.
July 30, 2012 at 10:18 pm